Bowe vs. Holyfield I-III - "Die" Trilogie des Boxsports!


B

Ballagoal

Guest
Konfuzius schrieb:
dann kam der kampf gegen tyson 1.

holyfields schlagkraft war bei tyson 1 auf dem höhepunkt, allerdings war er konditionell längst nicht mehr auf dem niveau von z.b. bowe 2.,

der kampf gegen tyson1 war ausserdem alles andere als eindeutig, bevor holy tyson das erste mal am boden hatte, hatte er deutliche probleme + war deutlich angeschlagen, ausserdem musste er sich schon pausen nehmen + hat mitunter eher wenig geschlagen,
später hatte er noch mal deutliche probleme

von einem dominierenden holyfield zu sprechen wie seitdem immer behauptet wird, ist lächerlich, der kampf war mindestens bis zur 9 völlig ausgeglichen + der ausgang alles andere als klar.

hätten die beiden geboxt wo holyfield gegen cooper geboxt hat weil tyson krank war, hätte ich aus heutiger sicht auf einen knappen punktsieg von tyson getippt.

Holy hat deutlich gezeigt, wie man Tyson besiegen kann. Auch wenn er ab und an mal angeschlagen war, wer war das gegen den damaligen Tyson nicht? Holy hat eine unglaublich beherzte Weltklasse Leistung abgeliefert und Tyson nach und nach Frustriert. Ab der 6. Runde war der Kampf so gut wie endschieden.
 

Devil

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red shadow schrieb:
@ Devil



Holy war im zweiten Kampf wesentlich besser, er hätte auch gewinnen müssen. In Duell eins hat Lewis in der ersten Hälfte des Gefechts, mit Ausnahme von Runde 3, dominiert und die Runden überwiegend klar gewonnen. Ab Runde 8 hat Holyfield deutlich mehr gemacht und Lewis fast gar nichts mehr. Holyfield konnte daher die Runden 8-11 für sich entscheiden. Zwar nicht soo eindeutig wie Lewis "seine" Runden zuvor, aber definitiv. Man darf nicht vergessen, dass jede Runde einzeln bewertet wird.

Dazu gibt es einen sehr guten Artikel von "Boxing Monthly" einem englischen Boxmagazin. Wenn du willst, dann stelle ich den link oder Artikel hier on.


Ja , das wäre nett(wobei mein Englisch eher schwach ist).


BTW:
Red Shadow/Ballagoal:

Wer von euch is eigentlich Tommy?
 

Bronco

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Holys Body

Was für mich bis heute ein Geheimnis bleibt, ist wie es Holyfield gelungen ist, ab dem Tyson-Kampf körperlich derartig massig, nahe zu gorillerartig auszusehen u. dabei trotzdem schnell zu bleiben???? Denn wenn man sich mal Bilder von ihm der späten 80iger oder frühen 90iger ansieht, besteht kein Vergleich! Und dann 1996 dieser Bulle, Anabolika ist sicherlich auszuschließen a) wegen Tests u. b) weil es im Boxen wohl nicht wirklich was bringen würde!
Vielleicht reines Bodybuilding + Eiweiss?? Dieser Unterschied innerhalb von 3-4 Jahren, vorallem der tierische Nacken, denn er allerdings auch heute noch hat, ist u. bleibt für mich ein Rätsel!!
 
F

Francois

Guest
Bronco schrieb:
Was für mich bis heute ein Geheimnis bleibt, ist wie es Holyfield gelungen ist, ab dem Tyson-Kampf körperlich derartig massig, nahe zu gorillerartig auszusehen u. dabei trotzdem schnell zu bleiben???? Denn wenn man sich mal Bilder von ihm der späten 80iger oder frühen 90iger ansieht, besteht kein Vergleich! Und dann 1996 dieser Bulle, Anabolika ist sicherlich auszuschließen a) wegen Tests u. b) weil es im Boxen wohl nicht wirklich was bringen würde!
Vielleicht reines Bodybuilding + Eiweiss?? Dieser Unterschied innerhalb von 3-4 Jahren, vorallem der tierische Nacken, denn er allerdings auch heute noch hat, ist u. bleibt für mich ein Rätsel!!

Da hast du Recht. Wenn eines klar ist, dann das Holy nie gedopt hat. :saint:

Rückfragen bitte an den Holypressesprecher und Adoptivsohn red shadow :D
 

Devil

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Bronco schrieb:
Was für mich bis heute ein Geheimnis bleibt, ist wie es Holyfield gelungen ist, ab dem Tyson-Kampf körperlich derartig massig, nahe zu gorillerartig auszusehen u. dabei trotzdem schnell zu bleiben???? Denn wenn man sich mal Bilder von ihm der späten 80iger oder frühen 90iger ansieht, besteht kein Vergleich! Und dann 1996 dieser Bulle, Anabolika ist sicherlich auszuschließen a) wegen Tests u. b) weil es im Boxen wohl nicht wirklich was bringen würde!
Vielleicht reines Bodybuilding + Eiweiss?? Dieser Unterschied innerhalb von 3-4 Jahren, vorallem der tierische Nacken, denn er allerdings auch heute noch hat, ist u. bleibt für mich ein Rätsel!!


Ich denke mal, daß da in erster Linie hartes Training für verantwortlich is. Holy war als Kind/Jugendlicher eher schmal( er wollte Football spielen , aber er war zu "klein" und "schmächtig"). Man sollte aber auch nicht vergessen, daß Tyson im Gefängnis körperlich stark abgebaut hat und zumindest in der Hinsicht vielleicht nich mehr der "Alte" war.
 
H

Herr Rauschenbach

Guest
hannes schrieb:
Kannst Du auch antworten, oder GROSS schreiben ?

wenn du mir eine frage auf deutsch stellst, die mehr als nur du lesen und verstehen können, gerne.

haben sie dir das ß auf der tastatur geklaut, oder weißt du nicht wofür die alt gr taste da ist?

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
 
H

Herr Rauschenbach

Guest
Super-Grimm schrieb:
Den 2. Kampf nahm Bowe aus meiner Sicht zu easy in der Vorbereitung. Die Unterbrechung durch den Fallschirmspringer schien ihn auch mehr aus dem Konzept gegracht zu haben als den Holyfield. Sonst hätte er nach meiner Ansicht auch diesen Fight gewonnen.

bowe's hochschwangere frau musste nach dem fallschirmangriff direkt ins krankenhaus gebracht werden.
 

Professor Moriarty

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@ Devil

BTW:
Red Shadow/Ballagoal:

Wer von euch is eigentlich Tommy?

Schweinerei, natürlich bin ich der einzig wahre Tommy ;)!

Es folgt der Artikel zu Holyfield vs. Lewis 1:

"I was ripped off," raged Lennox Lewis. "It was a conspiracy. It wasn't even a close fight." His manager, Frank Maloney, who had planned to lead a victory parade around Times Square in his Union Flag suit, was instead left muttering: "Fucking scandal." And he wasn't referring to the reports that said he was to be dumped after the fight, a matter that I am sickeningly concerned we have not heard the last of. But, revoltingly treacherous as it may seem that the Little Englander might not be for Lewis world much longer, we have more pressing matters to address right now.

Like what went wrong with the Fight of the Decade? Why is Evander Holyfield still in possession of the World Boxing Association and International Boxing Federation titles, and why is Lennox Lewis still the World Boxing Council champion? Why was the undisputed heavyweight title left so disputed? And what were the reasons behind this failure? It really depends who you listen to, and those who shout loudest are hard to ignore.

The draw at Madison Square Garden on 13 March was described by US TV sports network ESPN as "The worst decision we have ever seen in boxing", and that is a theme that has been picked up worldwide. With gleeful abandon and wanton irresponsibility. "Boxing's messed up again, let's go wade in the sewer of the sports arena until we find something better to do."

And so the world's media set sail on a sea of controversy. And I, for one, feel distinctly green around the gills as a result. In short, I don't agree with the drama queens and conspiracy theorists. Nor with Lewis, Maloney, ESPN, anyone who sees this result as a robbery perpetrated by judges Larry O'Connell (WBC) and Eugenia Williams (IBF), who scored a draw - 115-115 - and a Holyfield win - 115-113 - respectively. Nor do I agree with judge Stanley Christoudoulou (WBA), who liked Lewis by 116-113, and as such was the hero of a situation that sees his fellow officials branded as villains, corrupt individuals, no less, in the eyes of many.

If these two judges were on the take, then investigate reporters from this magazine, the Independent, the Mail, the Sun, Sport First, plus another whose remarkable change from a draw to a Lewis win by four rounds still leaves me stunned. This "controversy" smacks of a need to wrench dramatic headlines from a disappointing fight that neither man deserved to win.

The draw-scoring journalists in question, including myself and BM columnist, Harry Mullan, whose poor health prevented his covering the show from ringside for Sport First but who scored it from TV, all had it 115 apiece. Just like O'Connell, the Kentishman who is now a fully fledged British traitor of Kim Philby magnitude, according to the disgruntled. So hang me, Mullan, Richard Williams, Jeff Powell and Colin Hart, too. What do we know? The editor of Europe's best-selling boxing mag, two chief sportswriters and two of the most experienced boxing writers in the world. What do we know?

The thing about boxing is that everyone thinks they're an expert, just like that. You can't tell 'em nothing - not that they ask, because they think they already know it all. And unfortunately, many of these self-opinionated and self-deluding misinformationists have access to news space, resulting in a perpetual bad rap for the sport. Any one can jump onto a controversy for some easy copy, but so few are truly qualified to do so.

Without naming names, this is the manner of tripe which appeared in print after the fight. "Lewis v Holyfield was meant to make sense of boxing's governance: the prize was amalgamating the WBA's and the IBF's championships - the other eight 'world' organisations might have fallen into line if the crown had been unilaterally bestowed." Pa-lease! Excuse my French, but what a load of crap that piece of writing is. Wrong, wrong, wrong all the way. And what a crock of utter . . . you get my drift . . . it is for New York to launch three government-level investigations into the result of a close contest that neither man could fully take control of to the extent that three experienced officials couldn't find the same result. What a disgraceful waste of tax-payers' money.

There will always be political parasites who will attempt to ride any wave of controversy for their own ends and those on both sides of the Atlantic who have done so should be ashamed of themselves for using an unpopular result from something as essentially irrelevant as a sporting event as an opportunity for some cheap electioneering. It would seem entirely preferable were they to concentrate on the job they had been elected to do. Their meddling is an insult to their constituents, all of whom are aware that the world's true imperfections cannot be glossed over by such blatantly populist posturing. Let me tell you something about draws. When you score one, you accept that it could have gone either way. All it takes is one point, perhaps only one punch, and you have a winner. The writers who saw Lewis and Holyfield as equal on the night will all readily accept that, as does judge O'Connell. It is only reasonable, no?

BM's Steve Farhood (ringside) and Graham Houston (TV-side) make coherent arguments for wide margins in favour of Lewis. But they are boxing men who can accept this was merely a disappointing outcome to a disappointing sporting event. A big one, yes, but just another one at the end of the day. There will be others.

The fight could have, should have, been so much more, but its mediocrity was defined by that of Lewis and Holyfield, neither of whom, had they won, could have claimed to have performed like the Baddest Man on the Planet, which this fight was designed to discover.

Supposing Lewis had won a contest that Maloney, correctly, had called Britain's most significant sporting encounter since the 1966 soccer World Cup Final. We're not talking Geoff Hurst hat-tricks here. Rather a nil-nil after 90 minutes, no score in extra time, Germany missing all five of their penalties, England missing their first four then Sepp Maier spilling a soft shot into his own net. You could cheer if you wanted, but that wouldn't be good enough for me.

Nor did the fashion in which this fight was fought satisfy the crowd of 21,284 - 8,000 of whom were British and deserved far more for the fortunes they spent to travel 3,000 miles in order to watch men being paid a combined $30 million show each other exaggerated respect for 36 minutes.

In full song for three rounds, the British Task Force disappeared until the final stages. They wanted to be there for "Our Lennie", but "Our Lennie" didn't seem to want to be there himself. But what of Ms Williams, the most heavily criticised, IBF official who scored in favour of Holyfield. It transpired that the New Jersey grandmother had been appointed just 24 hours before this fight and her two-point margin of victory for her fellow countryman, was built in rounds four and five, where she was totally at odds with her fellow judges who scored for Lewis.

"I don't know where they got her from or why she was appointed," said Maloney. "She wasn't on the list of six we were shown which the judges would be chosen from, then, suddenly, she is appointed from nowhere." "She's a lady with a lot of experience - of making bad decisions," said Lewis's co-promoter, Dino Duva.

While I might not necessarily agree with this official's scoring, I see no need to vilify her or question her parentage, morality or anything else. But it is an unfortunate fact of life in boxing that if you do something which someone doesn't agree with, you are not just in disagreement, you are wrong. Scum, even, and I make no exaggeration. Duva did not enlighten us regarding the previous "crimes" of Ms Williams and my deadline requirements prevented me from investigating further at that stage. All Son of Lou could offer as evidence against Williams at the post-fight conference was a sheet of paper on which appeared the so-called computer punch stats - Lewis connecting with 348 of 613 punches (57%), Holyfield with 130 of 385 (34%).

"How she could possibly give that result on the basis of what she saw I don't know," chipped in Emanuel Steward, who was so disgusted that he left the press conference - and Lewis's trainer is not known as a shunner of the spotlight.

"I scored by the blows that connected, I don't have the privilege of the boxing stats," said Williams. But even if she had, her score need not have been any more reliable.

On the contrary, "computer" punch stats are not, nor will they ever be, conclusive, because there is no computer. Punches are ticked off by very human beings - I know two of them myself - at ringside, people with the capability to be every bit as fallible as any judge. And with all due respect to the duo I mention (British and not involved in this fight), their combined ages would not equal that of O'Connell, illustrating the potentially massive disparity in experience between pros and amateurs, the latter of which punch-stat bods are compared to licensed officials.

Why aren't those who are so keen to question the judges' credibility applying the same criteria to the TVKO punch stat team? Because their names are not announced with their findings, that's why. Hard work for lazy journos.

Whether a punch is a scoring blow, did the receiving fighter manage to turn his head just enough to avoid it or did the blow cause that movement, will always be open to debate, by punch-counters as much as judges and fight-watchers. To view punch-counting as a science is ridiculous and certainly not reason enough to cause the reaction to this result that we see.

For one thing, it would be entirely possible for a fighter to land a massive amount of shots in three rounds but do next to nothing for the other nine, during which his opponent need only land a couple of decent punches in each round to run out a winner by a margin as wide as 117-111. I say this not in relation to Lewis and Holyfield's relative outputs in this fight, but to illustrate a very valid point that many have chosen to ignore, for their own ends.

After all, contemporary TV soccer coverage is full of statistics regarding, shots on target, amounts of corners, etc, but these have absolutely no bearing on the result of a match.

Computer punch stats are fun, nothing else. But they most certainly are not funny when taken as gospel. And they certainly are no reason for respected officials to be accused of corruption, nor for self-serving politicians to begin demanding government enquiries into the result of a bloody boxing match, for God's sake.

There are so many things to be taken into account when scoring a fight, not all of which might be immediately apparent, particularly to the armchair fan.

For instance, the three judges sit on different sides of the ring for good reason. A fight can look completely different depending on the position of the observer. I am reminded in particular of Steve Little's surprising win over Michael Nunn for the WBA super middleweight title in London five years ago as a case of a vastly different fight being seen from different angles. Those who had Nunn the winner were, almost to a man, along one apron, while the rest of the arena went with Little.

It is worth noting, I think, that I sat on the same side of the ring as Larry O'Connell in New York and agreed with his score. And there were those with the maligned Williams's view of the action - experienced fight-scorers from Britain in the crowd - who backed her vote for a Holyfield victory. That the rest of the arena, plus the TV multitudes who, it must be remembered, all have the same view, found this shocking is neither here nor there. They were not watching the same fight as we were. And that's why there are three judges, to cover all angles.

And then, obviously, there is the age-old quantity versus quality quandary. And without doubt, Lewis threw and landed far more punches. However, his jab - a predominant feature of this performance - was often little more than a paw, an extended range-finder or fender used to stop Holyfield doing what he needed to do against an opponent with such physical advantages - 6ft 2ins and 15st 5lbs against 6ft 5ins and 17st 8lbs - get inside. In that Holyfield could never achieve this with any frequency, Lewis draping his full weight over the older man and tying him up whenever he did, Lewis could be said to have controlled the fight. And points are scored for generalship, also, it should be acknowledged.

But Holyfield, while throwing less, landed good scoring blows of his own. And, most importantly, he landed them at crucial points, as one might expect of the most experienced heavyweight in the division (barring dinosaurs such as George Foreman and Larry Holmes, both of whom Holyfield fought and will have learned from).

Timing is important. It's common knowledge that an old pro will work for the last 30 seconds of a round in order to make an impression on the judges. Holyfield expanded on that psychological tact in New York; he worked steadily harder as the fight went on, giving the impression that he was building momentum as the fight unfolded. Certainly, that was how I saw it. And the judges.

Having had great difficulty getting to grips with Lewis's jab in the first two rounds, Holyfield started to warm to his task. He won the third, no problem, the judges agreed. I also gave him a share of the fourth, which Williams alone of the officials had him winning. But the fifth, where Williams was again the odd person out by voting Holyfield, was clearly a Lewis round, I thought, with Holyfield in his worst shape of the fight after Lewis punched him, totally illegally mind you, on the back of the head, much as he had done to Razor Ruddock in October 1992. Holyfield was disorientated and had to call on his famous and fantastic survival instincts in order to get through round five.

Rounds six and seven were interpreted differently by the judges. I had six even, while O'Connell went Holyfield and his colleagues had Lewis. The seventh I saw for Lewis, as did the WBA and IBF officials, while O'Connell had it even. As you can see, things were pretty tight at this stage.

But eight through 11 were Holyfield rounds, for myself and for the judges. Williams had him winning all four, while her associates gave three to Holyfield with one even - O'Connell the 10th, Christoudoulou the 11th.

Lewis had let his hands drop and stopped working, and the smaller man was making him give ground, leaping in and landing with double jabs, single shots and combinations. Holyfield was the general in these four rounds and it was here that he made the fight competitive, I thought. More than that, he took the lead.

Lewis might have won his rounds bigger, more dramatically, but Holyfield is canny and worked at the right times, at points when Lewis, for some unknown reason, took his foot off the gas. Lewis let Holyfield win rounds that he could easily have claimed as his own. God knows that Emanuel Steward, Harold Knight and Courtney Shand in Lewis's corner were imploring him to do more. But to no avail and Lewis has paid the price for thinking he knew best. Perhaps just for thinking instead of doing. It's all very well for Lewis, whose stamina was in question prior to this fight, to praise Steward for bringing him to a physical peak at the right time. But Steward is probably the greatest active trainer in the world, not a fitness coach. He speaks, you listen. He advises, you do, and you generally win. Lewis didn't and he drew.

Let's stop here, after round 11, for a bit of arithmetic, which we'll approach from Holyfield's angle as it was he who so many thought had done so little. The third was his, as were eight, nine, 10 and 11 - the judges were in almost complete agreement on that, as was I. Lewis did not win any of these rounds, that was agreed by all the officials. And that makes five out of 11 completed rounds to the WBA/IBF champ. Holyfield was in very good shape at that point, he'd turned the fight around.

Surprising as it may seem to many of you, Lewis, then, had to win the 12th and final round in order to get a draw according to O'Connell, myself and the other draw-scoring journalists. And, of course, Lewis won the last round clearly, all the judges were in agreement on that, and so a draw - five rounds each with two even - is hardly an outrageous result from this fight.

I must admit that on returning to London and watching a tape of the fight, I switched one Holyfield round - the 11th - to even, as it was also scored by Christoudoulou, and so my revised card had Lewis ahead by a single point at the end. But what's a one-round margin? In those circumstances you can hardly argue with a draw or even a loss by one point. Not everyone sees things exactly the same way.

But the judges didn't have the benefit of a video re-run and so neither will I shift from my original reading. A draw might not be the result any of us wanted, but that's what I'm prepared to live with and so must Lewis and his army of supporters, many of them newly impressed Americans who had previously poured scorn upon him. So what next?

All the sanctioning bodies have agreed, thankfully, to waive their mandatory requirements in order for a rematch to take place within six months. But, in truth, a second fight would likely be similar to the first. The fighters' respective sizes, styles and attitudes simply do not mesh in a manner that will provide thrilling encounters.

The investigations? They will run out of steam when the politicians find some other bandwagon to jump on. And the sooner the better.

And the rematch venue? Please, please, British fans, do not hold your breath for the rematch to take place on your soil. A second fight is unlikely to gross as much as the first, making it a virtual certainty that it will take place not in London, not in South Africa, but back in the States, where the bulk of the financial backing will come from. And to be quite honest, I wouldn't cross the pond again for a rematch. It just wasn't a rewarding enough experience and much of that is down to Lewis.

This was Lewis's much-publicised opportunity to define himself as a fighter and he did, although not in the manner he would have liked. We now know, beyond doubt, that his mentality is that of a chess player, one who is virtually allergic to the idea of risk-taking. And the willingness to take risks is part of greatness in any field. Greatness is grabbed, not gifted, but Lewis appears to want it handed to him on a plate. And it ain't gonna happen because, in life, that just doesn't happen.

Can Lewis change his attitude sufficiently to claim a place among the major heavyweight champions? at 33, I doubt it. This fight, the biggest of his career, showed him to be a natural conservative. And as such, much like William Hague, he seems destined not to be remembered as an outstanding contributor to his field. A shame for Lewis and also from a British perspective, but so it goes.

Holyfield had done enough to establish his position in history long before this fight and no one would blame him if he were to retire. Clearly, the warrior's heart now beats in an ageing body, one that even Holyfield's formidable will cannot drive to further heights of achievement. If he does fight on it surely will not be for long. And that will be for the best because the last thing boxing needs is for one of its genuine heroes of recent times to end up selling himself short. The overwhelming impression that this fight has left is that if Lewis and Holyfield are the two best heavyweights in the world, the sooner the next generation emerges the better. Because the Richest Prize in Sport does not deserve to be contested by fading forces and both are past their best, at the top by default.

Michael Grant, Herbie Hide and any other up-and-comer out there, get ready. Your time is near and the sport needs you. But take note; when your opportunity arrives, take it for all your life is worth. Otherwise a fate similar to that of Lewis is all that awaits you. And who wants to be a nearly man?

Quelle: boxing-monthly.co.uk
 

Devil

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red shadow schrieb:
@ Devil



Schweinerei, natürlich bin ich der einzig wahre Tommy ;)!

Es folgt der Artikel zu Holyfield vs. Lewis 1:

"I was ripped off," raged Lennox Lewis. "It was a conspiracy. It wasn't even a close fight." His manager, Frank Maloney, who had planned to lead a victory parade around Times Square in his Union Flag suit, was instead left muttering: "Fucking scandal." And he wasn't referring to the reports that said he was to be dumped after the fight, a matter that I am sickeningly concerned we have not heard the last of. But, revoltingly treacherous as it may seem that the Little Englander might not be for Lewis world much longer, we have more pressing matters to address right now.

Like what went wrong with the Fight of the Decade? Why is Evander Holyfield still in possession of the World Boxing Association and International Boxing Federation titles, and why is Lennox Lewis still the World Boxing Council champion? Why was the undisputed heavyweight title left so disputed? And what were the reasons behind this failure? It really depends who you listen to, and those who shout loudest are hard to ignore.

The draw at Madison Square Garden on 13 March was described by US TV sports network ESPN as "The worst decision we have ever seen in boxing", and that is a theme that has been picked up worldwide. With gleeful abandon and wanton irresponsibility. "Boxing's messed up again, let's go wade in the sewer of the sports arena until we find something better to do."

And so the world's media set sail on a sea of controversy. And I, for one, feel distinctly green around the gills as a result. In short, I don't agree with the drama queens and conspiracy theorists. Nor with Lewis, Maloney, ESPN, anyone who sees this result as a robbery perpetrated by judges Larry O'Connell (WBC) and Eugenia Williams (IBF), who scored a draw - 115-115 - and a Holyfield win - 115-113 - respectively. Nor do I agree with judge Stanley Christoudoulou (WBA), who liked Lewis by 116-113, and as such was the hero of a situation that sees his fellow officials branded as villains, corrupt individuals, no less, in the eyes of many.

If these two judges were on the take, then investigate reporters from this magazine, the Independent, the Mail, the Sun, Sport First, plus another whose remarkable change from a draw to a Lewis win by four rounds still leaves me stunned. This "controversy" smacks of a need to wrench dramatic headlines from a disappointing fight that neither man deserved to win.

The draw-scoring journalists in question, including myself and BM columnist, Harry Mullan, whose poor health prevented his covering the show from ringside for Sport First but who scored it from TV, all had it 115 apiece. Just like O'Connell, the Kentishman who is now a fully fledged British traitor of Kim Philby magnitude, according to the disgruntled. So hang me, Mullan, Richard Williams, Jeff Powell and Colin Hart, too. What do we know? The editor of Europe's best-selling boxing mag, two chief sportswriters and two of the most experienced boxing writers in the world. What do we know?

The thing about boxing is that everyone thinks they're an expert, just like that. You can't tell 'em nothing - not that they ask, because they think they already know it all. And unfortunately, many of these self-opinionated and self-deluding misinformationists have access to news space, resulting in a perpetual bad rap for the sport. Any one can jump onto a controversy for some easy copy, but so few are truly qualified to do so.

Without naming names, this is the manner of tripe which appeared in print after the fight. "Lewis v Holyfield was meant to make sense of boxing's governance: the prize was amalgamating the WBA's and the IBF's championships - the other eight 'world' organisations might have fallen into line if the crown had been unilaterally bestowed." Pa-lease! Excuse my French, but what a load of crap that piece of writing is. Wrong, wrong, wrong all the way. And what a crock of utter . . . you get my drift . . . it is for New York to launch three government-level investigations into the result of a close contest that neither man could fully take control of to the extent that three experienced officials couldn't find the same result. What a disgraceful waste of tax-payers' money.

There will always be political parasites who will attempt to ride any wave of controversy for their own ends and those on both sides of the Atlantic who have done so should be ashamed of themselves for using an unpopular result from something as essentially irrelevant as a sporting event as an opportunity for some cheap electioneering. It would seem entirely preferable were they to concentrate on the job they had been elected to do. Their meddling is an insult to their constituents, all of whom are aware that the world's true imperfections cannot be glossed over by such blatantly populist posturing. Let me tell you something about draws. When you score one, you accept that it could have gone either way. All it takes is one point, perhaps only one punch, and you have a winner. The writers who saw Lewis and Holyfield as equal on the night will all readily accept that, as does judge O'Connell. It is only reasonable, no?

BM's Steve Farhood (ringside) and Graham Houston (TV-side) make coherent arguments for wide margins in favour of Lewis. But they are boxing men who can accept this was merely a disappointing outcome to a disappointing sporting event. A big one, yes, but just another one at the end of the day. There will be others.

The fight could have, should have, been so much more, but its mediocrity was defined by that of Lewis and Holyfield, neither of whom, had they won, could have claimed to have performed like the Baddest Man on the Planet, which this fight was designed to discover.

Supposing Lewis had won a contest that Maloney, correctly, had called Britain's most significant sporting encounter since the 1966 soccer World Cup Final. We're not talking Geoff Hurst hat-tricks here. Rather a nil-nil after 90 minutes, no score in extra time, Germany missing all five of their penalties, England missing their first four then Sepp Maier spilling a soft shot into his own net. You could cheer if you wanted, but that wouldn't be good enough for me.

Nor did the fashion in which this fight was fought satisfy the crowd of 21,284 - 8,000 of whom were British and deserved far more for the fortunes they spent to travel 3,000 miles in order to watch men being paid a combined $30 million show each other exaggerated respect for 36 minutes.

In full song for three rounds, the British Task Force disappeared until the final stages. They wanted to be there for "Our Lennie", but "Our Lennie" didn't seem to want to be there himself. But what of Ms Williams, the most heavily criticised, IBF official who scored in favour of Holyfield. It transpired that the New Jersey grandmother had been appointed just 24 hours before this fight and her two-point margin of victory for her fellow countryman, was built in rounds four and five, where she was totally at odds with her fellow judges who scored for Lewis.

"I don't know where they got her from or why she was appointed," said Maloney. "She wasn't on the list of six we were shown which the judges would be chosen from, then, suddenly, she is appointed from nowhere." "She's a lady with a lot of experience - of making bad decisions," said Lewis's co-promoter, Dino Duva.

While I might not necessarily agree with this official's scoring, I see no need to vilify her or question her parentage, morality or anything else. But it is an unfortunate fact of life in boxing that if you do something which someone doesn't agree with, you are not just in disagreement, you are wrong. Scum, even, and I make no exaggeration. Duva did not enlighten us regarding the previous "crimes" of Ms Williams and my deadline requirements prevented me from investigating further at that stage. All Son of Lou could offer as evidence against Williams at the post-fight conference was a sheet of paper on which appeared the so-called computer punch stats - Lewis connecting with 348 of 613 punches (57%), Holyfield with 130 of 385 (34%).

"How she could possibly give that result on the basis of what she saw I don't know," chipped in Emanuel Steward, who was so disgusted that he left the press conference - and Lewis's trainer is not known as a shunner of the spotlight.

"I scored by the blows that connected, I don't have the privilege of the boxing stats," said Williams. But even if she had, her score need not have been any more reliable.

On the contrary, "computer" punch stats are not, nor will they ever be, conclusive, because there is no computer. Punches are ticked off by very human beings - I know two of them myself - at ringside, people with the capability to be every bit as fallible as any judge. And with all due respect to the duo I mention (British and not involved in this fight), their combined ages would not equal that of O'Connell, illustrating the potentially massive disparity in experience between pros and amateurs, the latter of which punch-stat bods are compared to licensed officials.

Why aren't those who are so keen to question the judges' credibility applying the same criteria to the TVKO punch stat team? Because their names are not announced with their findings, that's why. Hard work for lazy journos.

Whether a punch is a scoring blow, did the receiving fighter manage to turn his head just enough to avoid it or did the blow cause that movement, will always be open to debate, by punch-counters as much as judges and fight-watchers. To view punch-counting as a science is ridiculous and certainly not reason enough to cause the reaction to this result that we see.

For one thing, it would be entirely possible for a fighter to land a massive amount of shots in three rounds but do next to nothing for the other nine, during which his opponent need only land a couple of decent punches in each round to run out a winner by a margin as wide as 117-111. I say this not in relation to Lewis and Holyfield's relative outputs in this fight, but to illustrate a very valid point that many have chosen to ignore, for their own ends.

After all, contemporary TV soccer coverage is full of statistics regarding, shots on target, amounts of corners, etc, but these have absolutely no bearing on the result of a match.

Computer punch stats are fun, nothing else. But they most certainly are not funny when taken as gospel. And they certainly are no reason for respected officials to be accused of corruption, nor for self-serving politicians to begin demanding government enquiries into the result of a bloody boxing match, for God's sake.

There are so many things to be taken into account when scoring a fight, not all of which might be immediately apparent, particularly to the armchair fan.

For instance, the three judges sit on different sides of the ring for good reason. A fight can look completely different depending on the position of the observer. I am reminded in particular of Steve Little's surprising win over Michael Nunn for the WBA super middleweight title in London five years ago as a case of a vastly different fight being seen from different angles. Those who had Nunn the winner were, almost to a man, along one apron, while the rest of the arena went with Little.

It is worth noting, I think, that I sat on the same side of the ring as Larry O'Connell in New York and agreed with his score. And there were those with the maligned Williams's view of the action - experienced fight-scorers from Britain in the crowd - who backed her vote for a Holyfield victory. That the rest of the arena, plus the TV multitudes who, it must be remembered, all have the same view, found this shocking is neither here nor there. They were not watching the same fight as we were. And that's why there are three judges, to cover all angles.

And then, obviously, there is the age-old quantity versus quality quandary. And without doubt, Lewis threw and landed far more punches. However, his jab - a predominant feature of this performance - was often little more than a paw, an extended range-finder or fender used to stop Holyfield doing what he needed to do against an opponent with such physical advantages - 6ft 2ins and 15st 5lbs against 6ft 5ins and 17st 8lbs - get inside. In that Holyfield could never achieve this with any frequency, Lewis draping his full weight over the older man and tying him up whenever he did, Lewis could be said to have controlled the fight. And points are scored for generalship, also, it should be acknowledged.

But Holyfield, while throwing less, landed good scoring blows of his own. And, most importantly, he landed them at crucial points, as one might expect of the most experienced heavyweight in the division (barring dinosaurs such as George Foreman and Larry Holmes, both of whom Holyfield fought and will have learned from).

Timing is important. It's common knowledge that an old pro will work for the last 30 seconds of a round in order to make an impression on the judges. Holyfield expanded on that psychological tact in New York; he worked steadily harder as the fight went on, giving the impression that he was building momentum as the fight unfolded. Certainly, that was how I saw it. And the judges.

Having had great difficulty getting to grips with Lewis's jab in the first two rounds, Holyfield started to warm to his task. He won the third, no problem, the judges agreed. I also gave him a share of the fourth, which Williams alone of the officials had him winning. But the fifth, where Williams was again the odd person out by voting Holyfield, was clearly a Lewis round, I thought, with Holyfield in his worst shape of the fight after Lewis punched him, totally illegally mind you, on the back of the head, much as he had done to Razor Ruddock in October 1992. Holyfield was disorientated and had to call on his famous and fantastic survival instincts in order to get through round five.

Rounds six and seven were interpreted differently by the judges. I had six even, while O'Connell went Holyfield and his colleagues had Lewis. The seventh I saw for Lewis, as did the WBA and IBF officials, while O'Connell had it even. As you can see, things were pretty tight at this stage.

But eight through 11 were Holyfield rounds, for myself and for the judges. Williams had him winning all four, while her associates gave three to Holyfield with one even - O'Connell the 10th, Christoudoulou the 11th.

Lewis had let his hands drop and stopped working, and the smaller man was making him give ground, leaping in and landing with double jabs, single shots and combinations. Holyfield was the general in these four rounds and it was here that he made the fight competitive, I thought. More than that, he took the lead.

Lewis might have won his rounds bigger, more dramatically, but Holyfield is canny and worked at the right times, at points when Lewis, for some unknown reason, took his foot off the gas. Lewis let Holyfield win rounds that he could easily have claimed as his own. God knows that Emanuel Steward, Harold Knight and Courtney Shand in Lewis's corner were imploring him to do more. But to no avail and Lewis has paid the price for thinking he knew best. Perhaps just for thinking instead of doing. It's all very well for Lewis, whose stamina was in question prior to this fight, to praise Steward for bringing him to a physical peak at the right time. But Steward is probably the greatest active trainer in the world, not a fitness coach. He speaks, you listen. He advises, you do, and you generally win. Lewis didn't and he drew.

Let's stop here, after round 11, for a bit of arithmetic, which we'll approach from Holyfield's angle as it was he who so many thought had done so little. The third was his, as were eight, nine, 10 and 11 - the judges were in almost complete agreement on that, as was I. Lewis did not win any of these rounds, that was agreed by all the officials. And that makes five out of 11 completed rounds to the WBA/IBF champ. Holyfield was in very good shape at that point, he'd turned the fight around.

Surprising as it may seem to many of you, Lewis, then, had to win the 12th and final round in order to get a draw according to O'Connell, myself and the other draw-scoring journalists. And, of course, Lewis won the last round clearly, all the judges were in agreement on that, and so a draw - five rounds each with two even - is hardly an outrageous result from this fight.

I must admit that on returning to London and watching a tape of the fight, I switched one Holyfield round - the 11th - to even, as it was also scored by Christoudoulou, and so my revised card had Lewis ahead by a single point at the end. But what's a one-round margin? In those circumstances you can hardly argue with a draw or even a loss by one point. Not everyone sees things exactly the same way.

But the judges didn't have the benefit of a video re-run and so neither will I shift from my original reading. A draw might not be the result any of us wanted, but that's what I'm prepared to live with and so must Lewis and his army of supporters, many of them newly impressed Americans who had previously poured scorn upon him. So what next?

All the sanctioning bodies have agreed, thankfully, to waive their mandatory requirements in order for a rematch to take place within six months. But, in truth, a second fight would likely be similar to the first. The fighters' respective sizes, styles and attitudes simply do not mesh in a manner that will provide thrilling encounters.

The investigations? They will run out of steam when the politicians find some other bandwagon to jump on. And the sooner the better.

And the rematch venue? Please, please, British fans, do not hold your breath for the rematch to take place on your soil. A second fight is unlikely to gross as much as the first, making it a virtual certainty that it will take place not in London, not in South Africa, but back in the States, where the bulk of the financial backing will come from. And to be quite honest, I wouldn't cross the pond again for a rematch. It just wasn't a rewarding enough experience and much of that is down to Lewis.

This was Lewis's much-publicised opportunity to define himself as a fighter and he did, although not in the manner he would have liked. We now know, beyond doubt, that his mentality is that of a chess player, one who is virtually allergic to the idea of risk-taking. And the willingness to take risks is part of greatness in any field. Greatness is grabbed, not gifted, but Lewis appears to want it handed to him on a plate. And it ain't gonna happen because, in life, that just doesn't happen.

Can Lewis change his attitude sufficiently to claim a place among the major heavyweight champions? at 33, I doubt it. This fight, the biggest of his career, showed him to be a natural conservative. And as such, much like William Hague, he seems destined not to be remembered as an outstanding contributor to his field. A shame for Lewis and also from a British perspective, but so it goes.

Holyfield had done enough to establish his position in history long before this fight and no one would blame him if he were to retire. Clearly, the warrior's heart now beats in an ageing body, one that even Holyfield's formidable will cannot drive to further heights of achievement. If he does fight on it surely will not be for long. And that will be for the best because the last thing boxing needs is for one of its genuine heroes of recent times to end up selling himself short. The overwhelming impression that this fight has left is that if Lewis and Holyfield are the two best heavyweights in the world, the sooner the next generation emerges the better. Because the Richest Prize in Sport does not deserve to be contested by fading forces and both are past their best, at the top by default.

Michael Grant, Herbie Hide and any other up-and-comer out there, get ready. Your time is near and the sport needs you. But take note; when your opportunity arrives, take it for all your life is worth. Otherwise a fate similar to that of Lewis is all that awaits you. And who wants to be a nearly man?

Quelle: boxing-monthly.co.uk

Ich verstehe es leider nur teilweise...
 

thumbs-up

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die Bowe/Holyfield-Trilogie und viele andere Kämpfe, die hier in diesem Thread genannt wurden, sind - jeder für sich - schlicht und ergreifend Kämpfe, die dich zum Box-Fan machen können, wenn du noch keiner bist. da ist es mir herzlich wurscht, wie früh ich dafür aufstehen muss oder mir am Tag darauf die Freundin in den Ohren hängt, weil ich mir das gleich noch mal reinziehe statt mit ihr Lindenstrasse zu gucken. solche Kämpfe sind der Grund, warum ich diesen Sport liebe.
 

hannes

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Herr Rauschenbach schrieb:
wenn du mir eine frage auf deutsch stellst, die mehr als nur du lesen und verstehen können, gerne.

haben sie dir das ß auf der tastatur geklaut, oder weißt du nicht wofür die alt gr taste da ist?

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Okay, once again:

How many hours per day do you waste watching your favourite fighters on TV ?
 
H

Herr Rauschenbach

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Seni cok özledim görmeli

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
 

Cord

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thumbs-up schrieb:
die Bowe/Holyfield-Trilogie und viele andere Kämpfe, die hier in diesem Thread genannt wurden, sind - jeder für sich - schlicht und ergreifend Kämpfe, die dich zum Box-Fan machen können, wenn du noch keiner bist. da ist es mir herzlich wurscht, wie früh ich dafür aufstehen muss oder mir am Tag darauf die Freundin in den Ohren hängt, weil ich mir das gleich noch mal reinziehe statt mit ihr Lindenstrasse zu gucken. solche Kämpfe sind der Grund, warum ich diesen Sport liebe.

Yep, da kann ich einfach nur zustimmen. Den zweiten Kampf habe ich damals Live gesehen. Das werde ich nie vergessen.
 

Super-Grimm

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Herr Rauschenbach schrieb:
bowe's hochschwangere frau musste nach dem fallschirmangriff direkt ins krankenhaus gebracht werden.
Danke für die Info. Das habe ich bislang nicht gewußt. Es erklärt, sofern Bowe den Abgang seiner Frau mitbekommen hat, warum er erst einmal aus dem Tritt kam.
 

Super-Grimm

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ACE1 schrieb:
er war aber auchin den ersten 7 runden schlechter als holyfield

Ich dachte, Bowe bekam den Kampf zuvor gerade in den Griff. Kann mich aber auch nicht mehr so richtig erinnern. Hilft nix. Muß mir den Kampf wohl noch mal am Wochenende zu Gemüte führen.
 

Joker

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@ red shadow

Ich würde wetten, daß Holy dich schon längst adoptiert hätte, wenn er hier mitlesen würde. :laugh2:

Wenn es um die besten Kämpfe/Trilogien der Boxgeschichte geht, dann ist das schon etwas, was ich eher Gewichtsklassenübergreifend beurteilen würde. Aber natürlich muß man schon berücksichtigen, welches Tempo und welche Intensität Holyfield und Bowe über die Mehrzahl der Runden in allen drei Kämpfen ablieferten. Für Schwergewichtler war das absolut am Limit. Wenn man bedenkt, was Bowe für eine gewaltige Masse bewegen mußte, kann man nicht umhin, ihn als großartigen Athleten einzustufen, auch wenn da gelegentlich ein paar Speckröllchen zu sehen waren. Wenn ich mich recht erinnere, war es Ralf Rocchigiani, der Co-Kommentator war und von Holyfield mehr Aktion am Mann forderte. Aber das sehe ich anders. Holyfield hätte gar nicht so viel am Mann bleiben sollen, da er sich aber dort befand, kämpfte er wie ein Terrier. Wenn der Warrior tatsächlich mal nicht schlug, dann deshalb, weil er gerade ein paar Bomben von Bowe "verdaute".
 

Cord

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Eben, ich denke auch, dass Holyfield es sich hätte viel einfacher machen können. Aber sein Gemüt lässt so eine Taktik vielleicht nicht zu. Dem Publikum wurde so was geboten.
 
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